Welcome! It’s about time I ventured into the blogosphere with my first blog!
I’d like to focus my inaugural entry on a subject I know a
little something about: the fiddle/violin dichotomy. As most of you hopefully
know, the violin is a single instrument with two names. “Violin” is derived
from “viol” (an older stringed instrument), which itself is derived from
“vitula,” a Middle Latin word that is believed to have yielded the name “fiddle.”
Those who are well-informed often use the two names to describe different
styles of music performed on the same instrument. Unfortunately, however, many
people mistakenly believe that the fiddle and violin are two separate
instruments.
It’s not surprising that some people would be confused about
this, but there are two intriguing aspects of this confusion that make the
whole issue…well, even more confusing.
First, there isn’t just one physical “difference” people
point to – there are many. One has different strings than the other. One has a flatter bridge. You wear a shoulder rest on one but not the other. One is
amplified, while the other isn’t. One is dirtier. One is cheaper. One is
carried in a sack (!). The list goes on. During my 40-year performing career,
I’ve been approached by thousands of people with a hilariously wide range of explanations
for the “difference” between the fiddle and the violin.
Second, and perhaps more troubling, many people seem
emotionally invested in the fiddle/violin dichotomy. More specifically, people
seem disappointed that there is no difference. People often speak of one or the
other as a “lesser” instrument. “Violin” fans associate the fiddle with the
lower class, with bars and clubs, with a lack of refinement or talent. “Fiddle”
fans associate the violin with elitism, with the 1%, with a sense of rigidity
and a lack of musical and/or improvisational creativity.
So, for many people, the fiddle/violin dichotomy is about
differences in class (and, to some degree, race, but that’s for another blog
entry) and the different types of music people of different “classes” play.
These perceived class differences reinforce the notion that the fiddle and
violin should be different
instruments, for why would the same instrument be used by both the upper and
lower classes? (Certainly, in this case, the lower class is not seeking to
imitate the upper class.) Thus, people invent physical distinctions between the
two.
And some of the invented distinctions reflect a focus on
class. Which one do you think is supposedly dirtier, cheaper, and carried in a sack:
the fiddle or the violin?
Let’s face it: we’re essentially talking about the age-old
classical music (i.e., “art music”) vs. folk music debate. As I have said for
decades, I believe that music transcends what people perceive to be class boundaries.
Both classical music and folk music – or what some would call violin music and
fiddle music – are incredibly rich, engaging, challenging, and inspiring.
Rather than emphasize the differences between these
“classes” of music, I believe we should recognize the similarities between them,
and we should incorporate both into our string pedagogy as well as our iPod
playlists.
If nothing else, such a development would reduce the amount
of time I have to spend explaining to people that, yes, you can technically
carry either the violin OR the fiddle in a sack…
- Mark O'Connor
- Mark O'Connor
Good luck with your blogging efforts. I enjoy your posts on Facebook.
ReplyDeleteThank you... I am excited to have this new outlet for all my writing! I hope you will find it interesting, informative and entertaining!
DeleteIt is wonderful to have so many different kinds of music and musicians to listen to. VERY COOL to see all your professional credits, i had no clue! You didn't put on there that you can play fiddle/violin while balancing on a skateboard! ♥ thank you for providing so much great entertainment, my family and i enjoy very much.
ReplyDeleteI know, when my credentials are requested...it does cover a lot of geography! I do so many things that I don't credit myself with most of them on many projects probably like I should. Such as digital editing. I have edited most of my albums for the last 25 years, and most "editors" would of course like credit on the album covers. But since I am doing so many things regarding the albums, I skip crediting myself with things like digital editing, although it is very difficult work and in some cases takes longer than the other tasks! I hope you enjoy the blogs that I will post!
DeleteA timely topic, I had a violin vs fiddle discussion/disagreement just yesterday. Can I make a blog topic request? Could you discuss recommendations for parents/other adults that would like to introduce children to violin/fiddle/any instrument, either to appreciate or learn to play? What music to play for them? When to start lessons, etc? With schools cutting arts programs we parents/grandparents need more help/direction to keep kids involved. All of my family are appreciators, I'd love to have a few players in the next generation... Thanks for all you do.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much! Of course. I have an entire Method - the O'Connor Method. I am going to point you right to another blog that came out today, a great article and interview about my Method. My website: markoconnor.com will contain the rest of the information you will want - go to the O'Connor Method page. But please check this great piece out that was just published today!
Deletehttp://www.thebluegrassspecial.com/archive/2012/april2012/mark-o-conner-simple-compexities.html
Nice Job Mark!! I am always interested in what you have to say! and Play!
ReplyDeleteJoe Sites
Joe, thank you! There are so many LOUD voices about musical things now on the internet that I felt they were beginning to drown out what expert and professional musicians are "saying." So the Blog it is! Another blog actually inspired this first topic of mine here where they wrote that a fiddle bridge is always flatter than a violin bridge. This is false as it is exactly the same in most every case! Contrarily, Paganini used to flatten his bridge to play the triple stops he wrote in his daredevil compositions! So in that case it is reversed! Here we go!
ReplyDeleteBefore retiring from the University of Colorado at Denver, I taught Intercultural Communication for fifteen years. In each class, I used the violin/fiddle dichotomy to demonstrate stereotyping. However, I did not ask the students for the differences between the violin and the fiddle, I asked them (during a class discussion) for the differences between a violinist and a fiddler. Much like what you've said in the blog post, the fiddler was clearly associated with a "lower class" stereotype. Briefly: I always listed the student's responses on the blackboard; normally the terms associated with a violinist would not complete even one column: the terms associated with a fiddler always completed four or more columns; the students would always struggle to find terms attached to violinists, but never struggled for the terms associated with fiddlers; in either case, most or even all of the terms carried a negative connotation such as snobbish, prissy, snooty, not a hair out of place, expensive clothes, dog howling at his feet, scraggly beard, old, male, white, bib overalls, smells bad and many more. If I asked for age, gender and race, the fiddler was always old, male, and white; the violinist varied from male to female to gay, usually young, and either white or Asian but never black. Interesting stuff then and there, as well as here and now. You're doing good work.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, that is fascinating. Unfortunately the overall "stereotype" of fiddling or classical violin playing has become increasingly negative over the last 50 years like you have indicated from your class demonstrations. There are several reasons... while the guitar transitioned into rock from country, the fiddle did not make that transition like it should have, partly because African Americans were persuaded to not play the violin anymore from the 1920s and 30s through pressures from the music industry and marketing music by race. The other issue is that the Suzuki era of violin training and playing the last 50 years produced a lot of uneven results in classical music, and the "violin lesson" became associated with a bad sound or experience for young people. Also in the 40s and 50s most entertainers dressed up in suit and ties when they performed, including classical, bluegrass and jazz. When rock came in and people started to dress down a bit by the 70s, along with jazz and country, the classical establishment insisted on the penguin suits for all performances, so the face of classical did not change with the times, and became even more associated with high society, snobby attitudes. I hope to continue to do many things to try to turn the tide. I think we can do it! Let me know what years were those results that you listed. Much more work ahead of us!
ReplyDeleteThere is a rather sentimental story by Lucy Maud Montgomery (the Ann of Green Gables lady) which was written about 100 years ago, called "Each in his own tongue" which deals with this false dichotomy. It's interesting though because in the '80's Dexy's Midnight Runners brought out an lp (Too Rye Aye) with fiddlers in their rearranged band, and John Mellencamp also did an album in 1989 (Mr happy Go lucky)where the violins are really important to the rock and roll. It was seen as "experimental", that album. I have a friend who says "Music is my favourite kind of music". I dunno if I am making cuisine or food when I make an omelette with cheese, but it does taste good
ReplyDeleteI knew the fiddler who played with Mellencamp. I myself was a Rock violinist with the Dregs. Some of our best friends back then was the group Kansas, and Robby of course with the iconic Dust in the Wind violin solos... But yes, we needed to do a lot more at the critical time of transition, to make sure violin had a seat at the table with new music styles on the American scene. Just slow to the draw!
DeleteThis is already a great blog - thanks, Mark and commenters.
ReplyDeleteThank you all!
DeleteMy favorite violin/fiddle is still set up the way it was when I was under contract as concertmaster of the Coeur d'Alene (Idaho) Symphony Orchestra (and Chamber Orchestra): LR Baggs bridge with "classical curve" to the top; Vision Titanium G, D, and A strings with Pirastro Wondertone Gold Label E string; Bon Musica shoulder rest; and CodaBow Classic violin bow. I am equally comfortable playing Sally Goodin as I am Mozart on my late-1800's German Maggini fiddle/violin!
ReplyDeleteTony states it plain as day here. Exactly. And Tony is a many time National Fiddle Champion FYI. We have known each other since we were teens.
DeleteMy orchestra teacher, 40 years ago, called the thing a fiddle, which didn't bother me because I was just learning English. But now I'm giving lessons to my granddaughter, and she gave me a *look* the first time I called it a fiddle. I think she still didn't quite believe me that fiddle is just another word for violin. Is it possible that the folklorish distinction between fiddle and violin is a relatively recent development?
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you can surmise the first time you use a new word to a child and have that be anything other than simply new and different. To your other point, there have been 'fiddlers' who identify themselves this way for hundreds of years in America. A long history of great music, but most of it left out of the conservatories, which will be the topic of a future blog!
DeleteIn her case, she's not that young. She knew the word; she just didn't think it was the correct name for her instrument.
DeleteI understand. Well it is the first time she heard it, she probably felt like correcting you... no its a violin! But once she hears Itzhak call it a fiddle several times when she gets good enough to attend his summer camp, she will be fine with it!
DeleteAs a music teacher, I get this question about once a week. Sometimes, families even seem offended when I explain that there is really no difference between the two names. I call my instrument a "violin" since I usually lean towards performing European classical music. So, mostly I use "violin" and "fiddle" to describe the genre of music being played. And, I do enjoy performing both from time to time :)
ReplyDeleteYes, this is exactly the point of the blog... that some are actually offended there is no difference. I actually refer to myself as a violinist mostly too, but for a slightly different reason(s). Firstly, there are more players who call themselves violinists and I wanted to make sure that my music spoke to everyone without the semantics issue getting in the way of my music, compositions and performances. And secondly, I believe that our "fiddle" music is a part of our American Classical music environment, or should have been. Building bridges is hugely important in American music. These are some of the example that I have used and continue to push forward.
DeleteI definitely agree that building bridges is important!! Pretty much all of my students know some American music, and in some cases, they like it and learn it better than "classical" because it is familiar and fun for them. There is a lot of good to be said for that. Thanks for writing! I'm looking forward to more reading more of your posts!
DeleteAnd of course I have my new O'Connor Method that already has tens of thousands of children learning from. More about that in future posts as well!
DeleteNice to see you have a blog, Mr O'Connor!
ReplyDeleteThis is a great post! And very true, I believe. I taught myself to play fiddle style, but I have many violin friends who look down on fiddlers, and fiddle friends who can't stand violin players. They are both beautiful if people open their minds and listen to the music. :)
Well yes... the violin/fiddle became divisive in this country (USA) especially. It just was never that way in other countries to this extend at least, where there was pride for their indigenous music in schools and the state houses.
DeleteI am a beginning string player who enjoys attempting any kind of music on my Compagnon violin/fiddle. My piano students study BOTH "classical" and "pop" music. I'll be following your blog, that clearly will be very worthwhile!! Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteAlice, thanks so much! I have some interesting violin and music education related posts coming!
DeleteMark, thanks so much for taking on this broad topic (Full disclosure: I work for SHAR Music, exclusive supplier of the O'Connor method books). As an active and classically-trained violinist, I'd like to mention that, in normal conversation, us classical types will affectionately refer to their violins as "fiddles"! So, what is it that inclines so many people to create this artificial split??
ReplyDeleteHi Val, thanks for looking at the blog! Yes, Isaac Stern (who I got to know quite well) always called his violin a fiddle. I remember him as a guest on Larry King Live years ago and he said the word "fiddle" so many times I started to count them!
DeleteThanks Mark for your first post :) I get that question a lot from curious folk when they learn I play the fiddle / violin. I love your last line-everyone wanted to know why I laughed out loud. ha ha. My husband and I remember seeing you play at Strawberry Bluegrass festival, the most memorable experience was the playoff between Doc Watson and you! Not on the fiddle (the mandolin), but it was magic all the same. We all play different instruments in this family and enjoy getting others hooked as well. Looking forward to reading more!
ReplyDeleteI remember playing with Doc Watson when I was in my early 20s. It was such an amazing experience! Thanks for following the new blog!
ReplyDeleteMark,
ReplyDeleteWould be interested in your elaborating on the history you mention in a longer post. For instance, is the fiddle/violin dichotomy related to the overemphasis on atonality in 20th century classical music?
Related questions: how was the Fiddle Concerto received by the classical music world when it debuted? And why isn't it available on Itunes???
These are good topics and surely will be featured on a future blog. My "The Fiddle Concerto" is now the most performed concerto in the last 40 years, since Shostakovich. I believe my Fiddle Concerto helped to usher tonality back to modern classical composition. Do you know of another concerto or orchestral concert performance piece that was "tonal" immediately before it? I am not sure of one and it would require some research. But I remember nothing on the scene like it back then (other than movie scores and Broadway scores of course). The year of my concerto's premiere was 1993, composed it in 1991, and it was widely performed having gone past 200 performances now!
ReplyDeleteI've often thought things dried up after Appalachian Spring. To that end I'd venture it's not a coincidence that your signature piece has become Appalachia Waltz.
DeleteBTW, you'd didn't answer one of my questions, as to why the Fiddle Concerto isn't available on Itunes! :-)
You know, I an not sure why iTunes would not have it. I know that iTunes has a lot of my stuff including my American Classical music... It is Warner Bros Recrods, so there is little I can do about it. I am sure it is on Amazon though..
ReplyDeleteHappy to see you on! will put you on the avenue as one of our bloggers to follow links! cheers and looking forward to the reading.
ReplyDeleteThank you!
DeleteI gave a fun talk on the difference between a violin and a fiddle last summer. Always a fun topic of conversation. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm really enjoying your blog, by the way, Mark. Keep it up.
http://www.vithefiddler.com/the-difference-between-a-violin-and-a-fiddle/
Thanks,
Vi
Vi, thanks and hope you check in for upcoming blogs too. Lots to say and accomplish yet --- !
DeleteHello, Mark:
ReplyDeleteI've enjoyed reading your comments about the development and progression of American music on the Facebook Fiddlers page, and know I'll be looking forward to your posts here!
I think at least some of the class distinction is owed in part to the historical practice of patronage, wherein musicians were supported by wealthy individuals. Since classical music was something that was enjoyed by the "privileged classes", folk music was considered to be at a lower artistic level.
Secondly, I believe the sharp distinctions continued as a result of the way fiddle music,country music and the like were marketed during the 1st half of the 20th century-- as "hillbilly" music. So many recording artists were expected to adopt overly plain costumes and/or outrageously comical personas, with exaggerated accents and dialects, in order to market their recordings. This eventually made its way to movie screens, radio, venues like the Opry, and into American consciousness. Couple that with the very real urban vs. rural disparity between Northern and Southern economies and culture, particularly in the aftermath of the Civil War up to present day, and there you are. The American South and rural areas tend to be portrayed one way in the media, urban areas another, thus perpetuating the stereotypes.
You said, "I believe that music transcends what people perceive to be class boundaries. Both classical music and folk music – or what some would call violin music and fiddle music – are incredibly rich, engaging, challenging, and inspiring."..... Absolutely! In fact any number of classical composers through history agreed with you, as they incorporated many folk tunes and elements into their music.
Thanks for a thoughtful and interesting post!
Very nice Laura. All very good points... a couple of variables... the minstrel shows featuring fiddling were actually for the New York and big city rich set which pre dates the symphony orchestra in the states. "Hillbilly" actually was a good term, pretty classy. Of course we think of it as low class now, but when it was first used it was upper class. When the records first came out, you had the high class whites buying Hillbilly and the 1920s black audience buying "race" records distinguishing it as the lower class music of the two. But like you say, it is pretty culturally complicated. Since classical music was also music that European citizenry liked, they also cherished their own folk music. This example provides us a much smaller difference between the two than the United States and our private organizations of German socialites presenting the Symphony Orchestra in Boston for invited audiences only. They did this, while at the same time they were running down and demeaning our own folk music. Europeans did not do that. A matter of fact, the great composers of Europe used their folk music much more than American composers used ours. More on these topics in upcoming blogs! Thanks Laura!
DeleteMark:
DeleteI had the opportunity to spend a year overseas during college, and you're right-- Europeans are not nearly so "stuffy" and elitist (for want of a better term) about their classical music as we have tended to be in America.
Since you've traveled the world, why do you suppose that is? Do you think it's because other countries have a much longer history, so the classical tradition is very firmly rooted in their own cultures? In contrast, America pretty much "borrowed" from European composers and music for whatever our symphonic tradition has been, until the late 19th-early 20th century at any rate.
To complicate matters, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what "American" music is, since it's largely a pastiche of several different cultural traditions. Jazz and rock-and-roll are pretty solidly American, I think, but even they evolved from other influences.
Additionally, do you suppose that government support of the arts in European countries has made them more accessible to all citizens, so that class distinctions are more or less a non-issue where music is concerned?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Thanks,
Laura
Laura, really good points... I like them all and think they are pretty complete from my perspective. I have decided that American music means any music that was organized or developed here, no matter where its roots came from! And that is the concept of my Method's materials! On the other, the symphony orchestra was originally for the private societies in the north beginning in the 1840s. So it started out here as something for the privileged few. Although there were several interventions that attempted to bring it to our broader culture (like Gershwin was an intervention in a way). Earlier, Patrick Gilmore and his National Peace Jubilee in 1869 featuring a 1,000 piece orchestra and 100 firemen striking anvils - selling 30,000 seats was an example of this reaching out. But I think that while each of these reached for more of a wider and populist audience, the gate keepers of classical didn't want it, and Gilmore, Gershwin and even Copland's most populist music were not invited back. With not much of a welcome anymore, Gilmore moved to band music, Copland back to modern academic music, and Gershwin died before he could do a lot more about it in the classical environment.
DeleteDebate settled once and for all-
ReplyDeleteA violin has "strings"
A fiddle has "strangs"
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Ha! that reminds me of the time that Sting (the rock star) guested on the Country Music Awards show, and Vince Gill introduced him as "Stang."
DeleteJoe Venuti actually created an awesome Jazz Violin Method that I happen to have a copy of. It is out of print, but based on my research, it was on of the leading influences that caused the addition of Hot Solos and Jazz licks in Cowboy Music and Texas Swing.
ReplyDeleteJoe Venuti's influence on the creation of Texas Style fiddling is often underestimated, but it is my understanding that guys like Hugh Farr (of the Son's of the Pioneers) studied Joe's method.
The major difference between Venuti's Method and Suzuki's is that the Venuti method was targeted at professional musicians - teaching Jazz Violin to Violinists and Fiddlers, rather than getting lots of people started as beginners.
I play viola for alternative/rock/blues styles, imagine the confusion. What is that thang? Mmmmm, it's an alto fiddle.
ReplyDeleteWell said Mark and Tony both--knew them both as teenagers and I agree! Dave H.
ReplyDeleteMark, It was fun to find this blog topic today because I spent all morning creating lesson plans to teach your "Bluegrass & Bach, A Journey through American Fiddling with Mark O'Connor" that is going to be performed this month with the Classics for Kids Orchestra here in San Diego. Its been such fun to make lessons around your "Strings and Threads Suite" and the other music being presented. We docents are going to have fun teaching to this concert! I'm bringing two of my grand daughters, who happen to love the violin and have expressed interest in learning it. They are ages 6 & 8...a good age to start? I'm looking forward to seeing you at the Family Concert on March 24. Never have forgotten the wonderful visit you made to my music classroom at Walker Elem. long ago ( 2000) ! Musically, Dianne
ReplyDelete